Curse

ICURADik · Aug 16, 2005, 01:42 PM // 13:42

The reason you don't play a Bow Ranger is because bow rangers dont have knockdowns.

Epinephrine · Aug 16, 2005, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Hmm Ubiquitous is the sn my friend uses on our forums and in-game (ign = ubi quitous) Guess its popular.

One might say it's ubiquitous?

Neo-LD · Aug 16, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

One might say it's ubiquitous?

Almost. It would be truly Ubiquitous if everyone had his name. So far only 2. Gues thats like half-ubiquitousness.

aLittle Bird · Aug 16, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Hmm Ubiquitous is the sn my friend uses on our forums and in-game (ign = ubi quitous) Guess its popular.

Anyways, while a R/W may be better at attrition warfare in the 'current metagame', I ask why in the world would you use a melee R/W for that purpose when a bow ranger is so superior? They sport more damage output, and are vulnerable to far less counters (wards, soothing spells, etc) and have the ability to add to the attrition game with distracting and debilitating shot.

If you play a hammer, you arent aiming for victory by attition. You are aiming for 5-6 second perma-knockdown 400 damage spike. In which case, a war/* is the only way to go.

I will also mention that while the spirit metagame is common, it does not make up 100% of matches and is far less common in arena. Anywhere outside of its "metagame" a R/W drops off significantly.

Consistency of having 2 knockdowns along with good DPS still tips the R/W hammer over a Bow Ranger for me.

And this is just for GvG where Energy Denial is very common and very powerful. In Tombs I would go W/R as the denial is a lot less prevalent. In arena I would just be playing whatever new and twisted creation springs to mind as that is all I use Arena for.

It always comes down to the team build you are in and the metagame you are playing under.

Epinephrine · Aug 16, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Almost. It would be truly Ubiquitous if everyone had his name. So far only 2. Gues thats like half-ubiquitousness.

Well, it'd suffice to have one guy by that name everywhere. As long as it is around somewhere its ubiquitous. Ubiquinone for example is not actually everything in your body, but it is pretty much everywhere in that it is involved in respiration. But I'm just that pedantic.

MuKen · Aug 16, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwookie

Bleh if you just wanted a build why didn't you just go ahead and ask for one?

Exp 13
Hammer 12
Beast 9

Irresistable Blow
Crushing Blow
Devestating Hammer
Heavy Blow
Mighty Blow
Tigers Fury
For Great Justice

Now go and be merry.

Great, so now we have a R/W build that is supposedly better in some way than any W/* build that can be put together. Is this the case?

I want to see an Anti-R/W post a build that completely supercedes this build in every way (that matters). If none such exists, then R/W does serve some purpose, end of discussion.

Neo-LD · Aug 16, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

Great, so now we have a R/W build that is supposedly better in some way than any W/* build that can be put together. Is this the case?

I want to see an Anti-R/W post a build that completely supercedes this build in every way (that matters). If none such exists, then R/W does serve some purpose, end of discussion.

Hammer 16
Strength 13

Frenzy
Sprint
Irresistable Blow
Crushing Blow
Devasating Hammer
Heavy Blow
Plague Touch
Res Sig

Plague Touch is debatable. There are 100 different versions, most of them using aftershock instead. I just modded this guy to be a bit better for GvG.

While this build is not better in EVERY facet of combat, it is better in the most imprtant one: the spike. He is not meant to go in there wasting all his energy by spamming IB left and right. He saves for abit and unleashes his 400+ damage 5-6 second perma-knockdown combo.

While you may say "ha! that means that R/W is good for something" I say that what the R/W good for, total DPS, is surpassed by miles by bow rangers and axe warriors. The only purpose I can see for them then is to be a really sketchy hybrid.

Ubiquitous · Aug 16, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Yes, a pure strength+hammer warrior will always have longer single knockdowns and higher dps (emphasis here) when the damage/knockdown train is executed. The critical point that has yet to be answered (at least that I've seen) is that in a heavy energy denial atmosphere, the ability to quickly build that adrenaline skews very strongly to the R/W. Frenzy is particularly dangerous in a metagame that sees monks carrying energy drain, because a single energy drain on a hammer warrior all but zeroes the warrior's energy. Couple that with QZ, and the warrior is going to be hard-pressed to have enough energy to have a switch-stance in case s/he gets targeted. If you rely on building adrenaline through normal attacks on a target in a ward, it could literally be (in a bad case) 60 seconds before you can execute the damage train. Even if you can keep frenzy up non-stop, it's still taking far too long for the warrior build you posted to build enough adrenaline to go for that spike you are so fond of.

However, even in an energy denial atmosphere, a R/W with decent expertise can keep tiger's fury up non-stop with no risk at all, and is able to much more quickly capitalize on any target of opportunity. Flexibility and the ability to change targets without having wasted a ton of time is key in a build being useful, in my opinion. 400 damage and long knockdowns are nice, but if you can only use them a few times a match because you have no energy to get you to the point that you can execute the train, it's not a good trade off.

As for R/W hammer vs. bow, the knockdowns and disruption make the energy tradeoff extremely viable, particularly if you're draining their monks. I'll say it again, there is no one perfect build for each scenario. But your zealous claims of disproving the R/W in all situations is simply ludicrous.

Ubi

ElderAtronach · Aug 16, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Neo states that the R/Ws have their niche in a team-built, energy-denial environment, and that the W/X is better outside that niche. Wow, I could have told you that. In fact I stated so on page 2-3 of this thread. R/Ws are meant to fit a specific role on a team. You can't just go join a PUG with a R/W and expect to be successful. In the team role, R/W shines more than a W/X can due to high expertise.

I think this is a case of Neo having tried R/Ws, sucked at it, then tried to convince himself and everyone else that R/Ws suck, period. Which is simply not the case, as has been demonstrated REPEATEDLY by other posters, along with video clips of GVG fights from BBQ.

Now, can we let this thread die please?

S H I N O B I · Aug 16, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

I don't think anything any pro-R/W says will have an impact on the OP's opinion on the R/W. From what I've read on all his posts, to him, "Flexibility and the ability to change targets without having wasted a ton of time" is not his idea of a build being useful. The whole point of OP's first post was point out the uselessness of the R/W efficiency. Instead, he seems to be dead set on having spike dmg be the most important aspect to measuring a melee fighter's usefullness in pvp... This thread is turning into a Import vs. Domestic car thread lol

Tuna · Aug 16, 2005, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Hahaha. Funny. When someone from a successful guild makes some great points about R/W's, suddenly the argument is how NR is overpowered because it makes an R/W a valid build. Funny stuff.

Err... I think you may have missed the point.NR already throws a lot of stuff into the trash heap and it can be deduced by that guys post that warriors are the latest addition.

Quote:

Instead, he seems to be dead set on having spike dmg be the most important aspect to measuring a melee fighter's usefullness in pvp... This thread is turning into a Import vs. Domestic car thread lol

You know, I bet there is a correlation between these

I'm all for American muscle and warriors myself.

Nalukai · Aug 16, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

uhh.. my r/wa has gained 1500 faction alone in yaks in 2 weeks i created her and my pvp character has beat many in the island arenas.. i havent made it past the crystal desert yet so i dont have the skills i need... but i will say this much with the skill list i use.. i have 33 percent faster attack speed CONSTANTLY i have faster run CONSTANTLY and 2 forms of DOT along with ability to heal at an ungodly rate and antidote poison and dirt.. she is a very effective tanker or spell killer. goes to show you dont need any elite skills to own. ( plus i use the bow also but not to the extent of sword/shield.. she does her purpose in range and in the point).. if the team does get wiped out she is almost the only one left standing and i can assure you its not from standing back at a distance...

bwookie · Aug 16, 2005, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Sorry but your War hammer build kind of sucks. If you're taking Necro because you want to handle conditions yourself that's just a poor use of the war secondary and dilutes your whole argument for the War being better offensively because of his secondary options.

The only Strength skill you seem to have in that build is Sprint.

If that's the only reason for using a War as primary than that's a rather pitiful argument.

Based on your build the only reason it seems to take War primary is the slight bonus you get on dmg. You're hardly using your secondary for anything necessary.

S H I N O B I · Aug 16, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

I'm actually kinda impartial to both (owned a Trans Am WS6 before but now currently using an MR2 Turbo, and I have both a W/Mo main and a R/W alt) IMO its all about preference, and that each side is good in certain situations... Like saying a stock TA WS6 > MR2T in the freeway, but MR2T > TA WS6 on a downhill mountain pass....

bwookie · Aug 16, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

I drive a german car. What's that make me?

ICURADik · Aug 16, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Hammer 16
Strength 13

Frenzy
Sprint
Irresistable Blow
Crushing Blow
Devasating Hammer
Heavy Blow
Plague Touch
Res Sig

What happened to FGJ? Oh snap...now we are coming to a realization.

A Hammer W/x can never really effectively use more than maybe one skill from his secondary. You might as well make it pure warrior.

Nalukai · Aug 16, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

the mrt has a better roll factor on curves due to the wider wheel-base ^^TA's are straight forward long and awkward except on the straight run......

Ender Ward · Aug 16, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Hmm, don't really like that W/N Hammer build.
The necro subclass is useful in random/team arena, but with Martyr in a Tombs/GvG team it becomes redundant. The subclass on a Hammer W/X should be used to enhance damage significantly, or atleast improve survivability if you're being targeted alot for some reason (and can't frenzy).

And no, I ain't posting my own Hammer build. Figure it out yourselves, or keep on using R/W. Don't really have a burning need to convince anyone of anything anymore. Past experience so far shows that if logical arguments and conclusions gained from experience convince anyone at all, those people never post. Those that do continue posting, repeating the same arguments all over again, are the ones with fanatical devotion to their playstyle, who's minds you ain't gonna change, ever.

I also came up with and tested a decent R/W Hammer build that works alright. Not quite as good as a W/X for disruption or damage, but not too bad after all. Not good enough for me to bring to a GvG or Tombs game though. More like random/team Arena fodder.

Ofcourse based on our experiences in the tombs last night, I'm compelled to say that both hammer using W/X and R/W are really sub par, compared to ... uh, other options available. And I don't really see us using Hammer builds again anytime soon. But that's Tombs only. That environment is unique. Outside of Tombs, old rules stil apply.

S H I N O B I · Aug 16, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwookie

I drive a german car. What's that make me?

your a mesmer ;p

jk ^.^ Well, your car would be considered an Import since its from a foreign country

Import doesnt necessarilly mean Japanese car... but I guess that's wut one would think generally ^.^

Nalukai - don't forget the very nice weight distribution of the MR2T due to the midship location of the engine ^^ (The TA actually handles decently, but the MR2T is the better handler IMO)

I'd think of it more like this:

R/W - less horsepower/torque due to smaller displacement (no strength/armor), but better effiency (high expertise) and handling (flexibility)

W/x - more horsepower/torque due to displacement (armor/strength), but less engine efficiency (low energy) and handling (flexibility)...

Wilymo · Aug 16, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

OH and to whoever made this post, Spamming Tigers Fury makes a HUGE difference. It will increase your DPS ***HIGHER*** than a warriors. And, like you said, the tanking part really does not matter because you wont be targeted until last anyways. Think of a r/w build as freedom. Instead of being at the final seconds of the battle without any mana frantically hitting a stance that will save your ass, you would be able to use that stance and still have a plethora of mana leftover for ANY and ALL attacks you want to use. Cyclone axe spam, etc. The expertise branch truly sets the ranger/warrior away from the warrior/ranger in terms of dominance. Lets see if you can do a little math. Most warriors have like lets say 25 mana. Rangers...hmmmmm 28 and an extra pip. Now lets seee a warrior/ranger trying to be a ranger/warrior. *uses apply poison*- 10 mana left * uses tigers fury* 2 mana left (its giong to be regenerating : ) Oh golly jeepers. Guess who is out of mana. The warrior. =.= Oh golly jeepers. Guess who isnt out of mana? The ranger/warrior kicking your ass.